Balzac's Lost Illusions chat thread

[Andrea]

[Andrea]

We can chat about this book here.  Anyone know how to watch the 2021 screen  version online? It got a great rating on Rotten Tomatoes, 9.3 or something.  I don't see it on Netflix or YouTube.

[Andrea]

So I picked up a copy of Lost Illusions at McLeod's books down on Pender (Vancouver).  It's a substantial tome, over 600 pages, but with type big enough to read.  The translator was Katherine Prescott Wormeley.  The introduction gives the whole story away, so don't read it if you don't want spoilers.

I understand the screen version is available on Apple TV.

[DAntonia]

I am getting a couple of books from VPL. One, published 1898 (can't imagine that's a real antiquarian) contains The Two Poets and A Provincial Man in Paris; the other, 2010 ed., Illusions Perdues (that's it in French obviously) and Gaudissart II (not sure here). Also put a hold on a French DVD from 2022, and with English subtitles. Hope I can play it...

[Terese]

Glad to have found this group. Finishing up another book and will start next week.

[Andrea]

Welcome Terese! Happy to have you aboard.

[Andrea]

copied and pasted from wiki:  ( caution: a bit of a spoiler)

Plot summary

In 1820s France, 20-year-old poet Lucien de Rubempré travels from his provincial home in Angoulême to Paris after a contentious affair with a local society lady. He is sensitive, idealistic, handsome and determined to force the literary world to take notice. Contrary to his expectations, however, he discovers that he must make ends meet by writing scurrilous theater reviews and ends up beholden to the world of low-brow journalism.

At the behest of his crass boss, Étienne Lousteau, Lucien succumbs entirely to bribery and cronyism, achieving wealth and standing only at the cost of his artistic integrity and former friendships. In a last attempt to free himself from the all-consuming filth he is undone by his greatest weakness, his desire to transcend his low origins and illegitimate birth by buying a title of nobility. This too proves illusory and finally he is defeated and socially destroyed by the prevailing "fake news" cycle, returning home to defeat and obscurity.

[Andrea]

This image was on Wiki.  Interesting, it is described as a "Revised detail of daguerreotype"; I wonder what they 'revised'--maybe added the mustache?  haha.

It doesn't sound like the author enjoyed the ideal childhood according to wiki,.  His father , 50, took an 18 year old bride for her wealth.  Balzac was packed off to school from age 10 for seven years, but his miserly father, hoping to instill  hardscrabble ambition or whatever in his son,  supplied him with such meagre pocket money that he became an object of ridicule amongst his classmates.  We should be seeing some of this repeated in Lost Illusions if I recall the spoiler introduction correctly.  Except in the novel, the father was illiterate.  Balzac's actual father, and upwardly-mobile-climbing kind of chap, ended up Secretary to the King's Council, so must have been plenty literate.

[Andrea]

Nadar Balzac drawing 1850


Another nugget about Balzac's early days--he trained as a lawyer for three years, but didn't find it satisfactory

"....In 1819 Passez offered to make Balzac his successor (in the law practice), but his apprentice had had enough of the Law. He despaired of being "a clerk, a machine, a riding-school hack, eating and drinking and sleeping at fixed hours. I should be like everyone else. And that's what they call living, that life at the grindstone, doing the same thing over and over again.... I am hungry and nothing is offered to appease my appetite". He announced his intention to become a writer.

The loss of this opportunity caused serious discord in the Balzac household, although Honoré was not turned away entirely. Instead, in April 1819 he was allowed to live in the French capital—as English critic George Saintsbury describes it—"in a garret furnished in the most Spartan fashion, with a starvation allowance and an old woman to look after him", while the rest of the family moved to a house twenty miles  outside Paris...."

[Andrea]

Project Gutenberg link to Balzac's Lost Illusions:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/13159/pg13159-images.html

[CallMeAnnii]

Hi everyone, you can also download a copy from Open Library or Internet Archive. They have the Katharine Wormeley translation.

I heard the translation by Marriage isn't very good.

[Andrea]

Thanks for the head's up about translations, Annii.  I don't have my copy on hand, but will check it out.  The translator can make quite a difference.  

No--wait!  I posted that photo above of the copy I picked up at McLeod's--it is the Wormeley edition--I even stated that in my comment.  Anyway, guess I got lucky as I just grabbed the nicest, cleanest looking one from a gigantic pile of books.

[Andrea]

I haven't got too far into the novel itself yet, but have rather been reading a bit about the author and his life. While googling around, this link popped up--a youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1I6Ryv1rsY

[Andrea]

Update: I just watched the Balzac documentary and found it quite interesting and engaging.

[DAntonia]

Thanks for the head's up about translations, Annii.  I don't have my copy on hand, but will check it out.  The translator can make quite a difference.  

No--wait!  I posted that photo above of the copy I picked up at McLeod's--it is the Wormeley edition--I even stated that in my comment.  Anyway, guess I got lucky as I just grabbed the nicest, cleanest looking one from a gigantic pile of books.

And I have the Marriage edition. That is what my local.library had. Not knowing the oiriginal French, and rather not studying the book in-depth (or are we?.), I am quite happy with the translation. Actiually getting into it. My book is a Kessinger Legacy Reprint...interesting.

[greggu]

Couldn’t tell you much about translations. I just finished watching the movie and I really enjoyed it. I got the DVD from the Burnaby library . It was a long bus ride , but I also picked up a couple seasons of Spiral . It’s a French cop show..

For the movie they changed quite a lot. Balzac should be spinning in his grave. Or maybe he’s too much of a realist.

A whole grad student seminar can be a fun discussion of the changes between the book and the movie..

[Andrea]

Greggu sent me this link.  I thought that it was worth sharing here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+Kenneth+clark+about+Rodin%27s+sculpture+of+Balzac&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:c56fd701,vid:SsJkWkFMcwg,st:0

ummmm.... thoughts anyone?

[Andrea]

Re: Kenneth Clark's take on the Rodin statue,.....call me cynical, but I've always leaned towards the suspicion that if a piece of art or sculpture has to be explained by an academic at length in order to be appreciated or understood by the viewer, then the original work has failed. Being face-to-face with Van Gogh's starry night can bring a lump to your throat; there is no need for any rationalization

[Stella]

How is the translation by Kathleen Raine? Amazon has it on Kindle for 99 cents.
Stella

[Andrea]

Stella,
I did a quick google search on Lost Illusions translations, and this popped up:

"...The translation by Kathleen Raine is also outstanding, preferable to the Penguin version by Hunt, even though he was a Balzac specialist. Possibly this is because Raine was a poet as well as a translator. And it is of interest that she chose (or was chosen?) to do the translation...."  

https://www.amazon.com/review/R3BSN4EG7L2RDO

so at least one reader approves heartily.  Anyway, for 99 cents, you can't go wrong.  We can compare a paragraph or two-- I am reading the Wormley translation.  

Greg, how good is your French?   Can you be the judge as to the best translation of a chosen paragraph?  

[Jeanne]

My translation is by Ellen Marriage. Seems to be ok so far

[Andrea]

I am not so far along in the story; I have just arrived at the momentous --I anticipate-- evening when Lucien is being introduced to Mme. de Bargeton's circle of hoity-toities , and is about to get eviscerated --so I'm expecting--socially.  Criminy, it get dense here with the introduction of so many characters.  I'll either have to draw up a chart of people, or not worry about knowing one from another until the novel progresses.

[Andrea]

Speaking of different translations of Lost Illusions, I recall a discussion about this topic from an old Proust thread.  I saved some notes and old posts from that time (as Meetup was deleting all of our old conversations, over ten years' worth).  Julia and I were comparing translations, and she was reading it in French,  Translators can make a big difference.  To wit:

Re: Proust's In Search of Lost Time  , translators Moncrieff vs Davis

In Davis's introduction, she says that Moncrieff dressed up the writing by varying words; each time Proust used the word "disait "Moncrieff would translate that variously as: " 'remarked' , 'began' , 'murmured' , 'assured them' , etc ".
Davis has simply used "said".

The phrase "for me so painful" in Moncrieff's translation becomes "so exquisitely painful to myself"

A more extreme example of Moncrieff's wordiness-- Proust's description of some chrysanthemums, simply translated: "these ephemeral stars which light up on grey days"

Moncrieff's version: "these ephemeral stars, which kindle their cold fires in the murky atmosphere of winter afternoons"

[DAntonia]

I am not so far along in the story; I have just arrived at the momentous --I anticipate-- evening when Lucien is being introduced to Mme. de Bargeton's circle of hoity-toities , and is about to get eviscerated --so I'm expecting--socially.  Criminy, it get dense here with the introduction of so many characters.  I'll either have to draw up a chart of people, or not worry about knowing one from another until the novel progresses.

Draw up that chart of characters and share it here, or forget about them. I can't quite keep up either.

[Andrea]

"Draw up that chart of characters and share it here, or forget about them. I can't quite keep up either."

I did a quick Google, found this kind of Cole's Notes summary of the main characters

warning: SPOILERS, SPOLIERS, SPOILERS

David Séchard

David Séchard (dah-VEED say-SHAHR), a naïve printer who is the victim of knavery throughout his life. Even his avaricious father cheats him when he sells the son his business. David’s friendship for Lucien Chardon, his brother-in-law, also costs him a great deal. David spends his time working on a new process for making paper and eventually loses his business. All turns out well in the end, as Lucien Chardon sends him a large sum of money and David’s father dies leaving him well off.

Lucien Chardon

Lucien Chardon (lew-SYAH[N] shahr-DOH[N]), an unscrupulous but attractive poet, David’s brother-in-law. His escapades help to disgrace his sister and her husband and to ruin them financially for a time. After an affair with an aristocratic woman ends in his being found in her bedroom, he goes to Paris to lead a dissolute life as a journalist and man-about-town, living at the expense of David and Eve and an actress who is his mistress.

Eve Chardon

Eve Chardon, Lucien’s sister, who marries David Séchard. She lavishes love and money on her scapegrace brother. After her husband becomes involved with his paper-making process, she tries vainly to save his printing business by taking over its management.

Mme de Bargeton

Mme de Bargeton (deh bahr-zheh-TOH[N]), Lucien’s first mistress. When her affair with him is discovered, she takes him to Paris, where she later leaves him penniless. She becomes the wife of the comte du Châtelet.

M. de Bargeton

M. de Bargeton, elderly first husband of Mme Bargeton. Despite his age, he fights a duel in defense of his wife’s honor.

M. Petit-Claud

M. Petit-Claud (peh-TEE-kloh), an unscrupulous lawyer who helps David’s business rivals, even though David is his client.

The Cointet Brothers

The Cointet Brothers (kwahn-TAY), David’s business rivals in the printing business. They cheat him out of his paper-making invention and his print shop.

Coralie

Coralie (koh-rah-LEE), an actress who becomes Lucien’s mistress.

M. Séchard

M. Séchard, David’s avaricious father. He refuses to help his son financially to keep him out of debtors’ prison.

A Spanish priest

A Spanish priest, who hires Lucien to act as a front in his unscrupulous dealings.

https://www.enotes.com/topics/lost-illusions/characters

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